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1 to 15 of 21 PostDoc Forum Posts
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Solo
[Registered User]
10 November 2016 15:55
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Industry Job help/general entry-level job help etc
User: Solo - 10 November 2016 15:55
Wow, I didn't quite expect this response.
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anna199
[Registered User]
06 November 2016 18:47
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User: anna199 - 06 November 2016 18:47
Hi,
It must be stressful to not be able to find a job. Sometimes the main problem lies in the lack of trasferrable skills. Even though your subject knowledge can be proven by having graduated from top universities there are certain skills that employers are always looking for. I'm currently working for an online tutoring start-up which offers its tutors a programme called DevelopMe. It's designed to boost your employability skills and help with securing a job in your field. It might be a good opportunity for you to gain some valuable experience through completing free trainings which will develop your leadership, communication and coaching skills (out of many others) whilst earning money.
If you are interested and would like to hear more about it pm me and I will give you more details
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pm133
[Registered User]
05 November 2016 11:49
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User: pm133 - 05 November 2016 11:49
Quote From HazyJane:
I'm pretty sure I can tell when the advert for a technical post has been written by someone with technical knowledge and when it's written by a generalist/HR/manager person. Listing a ridiculous number of skills and/or buzzwords suggests the author doesn't really know what the job involves. Or that the job is so fuzzy that they can't pin down what is needed - never a good sign!
I think there's probably a lot of reading between the lines that can help. For example compare:
1. "Essential skill: Experienced R user (3+ years)"
2. "Essential skill: Experience of using R/SAS"
In the first case I'd rule myself out as I don't use R and even if willing to learn would be unable to get to the required level on the job in a fast enough time frame. But in the second case, even though I don't use R OR SAS, I'd consider myself eligible as I use Stata which is roughly equivalent, and the lack of detail about level of competence means I could probably persuade them to let me use Stata, or train me up in R/SAS. I would emphasise that equivalence and willingness to learn in the personal statement.
Does that interpretation sound reasonable to people with recruitment experience?
[BTW I thought in the UK it was no longer possible to specify years of experience as it is a form of age discrimination against the young. Rather, I thought the idea was that you were supposed to specify competencies instead].
I wouldnt have thought it would be illegal to specify a number of years of experience. What you cant say is "must be over 30 years of age and under 45". Mind you, academia is able to get away with using phrases like "young scientists" in job adverts which sends a lovely message to older PhD students.
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AOE26
[Registered User]
04 November 2016 12:59
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User: AOE26 - 04 November 2016 12:59
I would say both examples you need to have used said product. People add years as it gives them reassurance the person will have gained more knowledge.. what can happen is person A has used the product for 5 years - but only sparingly person B has used it for 2 years constantly and has far better knowledge but 5 > 2 in an employers mind.
The time when a transferable skill/knowledge is ok (for me at least) is when it's a preferred/bonus skill. I always think when an advert has a ton of skills required it's best to steer clear.. it might as well say "dogs body" or grand titles i.e head of x or x manager and you manage 1 person and must be hands on. In effect you are the dogs body who also has to put up with complaints!
Plus I have found the more senior I get the less quantifiable my role is!! I joke that I am 50% counsellor 50% sales person. I calm people down and then try and convince them to do other things :)
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HazyJane
[Registered User]
04 November 2016 10:54
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User: HazyJane - 04 November 2016 10:54
I'm pretty sure I can tell when the advert for a technical post has been written by someone with technical knowledge and when it's written by a generalist/HR/manager person. Listing a ridiculous number of skills and/or buzzwords suggests the author doesn't really know what the job involves. Or that the job is so fuzzy that they can't pin down what is needed - never a good sign!
I think there's probably a lot of reading between the lines that can help. For example compare:
1. "Essential skill: Experienced R user (3+ years)"
2. "Essential skill: Experience of using R/SAS"
In the first case I'd rule myself out as I don't use R and even if willing to learn would be unable to get to the required level on the job in a fast enough time frame. But in the second case, even though I don't use R OR SAS, I'd consider myself eligible as I use Stata which is roughly equivalent, and the lack of detail about level of competence means I could probably persuade them to let me use Stata, or train me up in R/SAS. I would emphasise that equivalence and willingness to learn in the personal statement.
Does that interpretation sound reasonable to people with recruitment experience?
[BTW I thought in the UK it was no longer possible to specify years of experience as it is a form of age discrimination against the young. Rather, I thought the idea was that you were supposed to specify competencies instead].
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pm133
[Registered User]
03 November 2016 20:07
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User: pm133 - 03 November 2016 20:07
Quote From AOE26:
Interesting post. You say candidates must have all of the essential skills you have listed.
Hypothetically what would you do if you couldn't find someone with all of those skills?
How long would you wait before hiring someone who was missing one of the essential skills?
I would list 3 essential skills. Without those you cannot do the role(s) I have. If after 6 months no one had those skills I would have to re-evaluate the role I have available - is the compensation the blocker? Does the combination I require compliment each other? Is it a location issue? Remember these are essential - I do not use the word lightly! I am happy to be flexible/train the next 15 skills! What I usually find is that the role I have is fairly industry standard but people kid themselves they have the skills. They have the buzzword on their cv, know roughly what it means but when you push them for their experience they have none. Not wanting to sound ancient but in my time I have employed 40-50 people I'd guess. It's not a particularly enjoyable process, agents are woefully unskilled - I may as well vet all the cv's myself. Candidates seem unable to write 2-3 pages of a cv without a plethora of errors - I am not joking when I say I have seen probably 20 cv's that have a personal summary at the beginning about being a great communicator only for that statement to be grammatically wrong! People not turning up for interviews.. or clearly lying.. or unable to look smart for an hour. Remember you may be nervous as the candidate but what the interviewer wants is to walk into the room and meet someone they like, matches their cv and is trustworthy.
I used to recruit software engineers in my previous career. I started up a recruitment business during that time as well and used to the candidates myself before sending their CV to the client. That worked because I was an experienced software engineer myself. That worked out quite well but I didn't enjoy trying to find suitable candidates and packed it in. Your experience mirrors mine in terms of the quality of CV. In general they were dreadful. It was very common for clients to ask for 10 essential skills. They would specify ESSENTIAL skills on one job spec as follows: 5-10 years experience of C, C++, Java, Linux, Perl, PHP, HTML, CSS, a few specific microprocessors, several specific embedded operating systems. That was just the essentials. All for a salary of £25k to £50k. Some clients even specify the type of University you must have graduated from AND they wanted only those who scored all top grades at school even if you had a PhD. Honestly it was a nightmare. In my book, if you have more than 2 to 3 essential skills then you are not thinking properly about the person you want to hire so I like the fact you only look for 3.
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AOE26
[Registered User]
03 November 2016 10:00
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User: AOE26 - 03 November 2016 10:00
Maybe I should offer my time to one person on here who is struggling to get a job in 'industry'!!! Check their cv and give them a mini interview (at my offices) to see where I can help them.
My area is IT - if anyone needs help drop me a pm.
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AOE26
[Registered User]
03 November 2016 09:55
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User: AOE26 - 03 November 2016 09:55
Interesting post. You say candidates must have all of the essential skills you have listed.
Hypothetically what would you do if you couldn't find someone with all of those skills?
How long would you wait before hiring someone who was missing one of the essential skills?
I would list 3 essential skills. Without those you cannot do the role(s) I have. If after 6 months no one had those skills I would have to re-evaluate the role I have available - is the compensation the blocker? Does the combination I require compliment each other? Is it a location issue? Remember these are essential - I do not use the word lightly! I am happy to be flexible/train the next 15 skills! What I usually find is that the role I have is fairly industry standard but people kid themselves they have the skills. They have the buzzword on their cv, know roughly what it means but when you push them for their experience they have none. Not wanting to sound ancient but in my time I have employed 40-50 people I'd guess. It's not a particularly enjoyable process, agents are woefully unskilled - I may as well vet all the cv's myself. Candidates seem unable to write 2-3 pages of a cv without a plethora of errors - I am not joking when I say I have seen probably 20 cv's that have a personal summary at the beginning about being a great communicator only for that statement to be grammatically wrong! People not turning up for interviews.. or clearly lying.. or unable to look smart for an hour. Remember you may be nervous as the candidate but what the interviewer wants is to walk into the room and meet someone they like, matches their cv and is trustworthy.
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pm133
[Registered User]
03 November 2016 02:47
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User: pm133 - 03 November 2016 02:47
Quote From Solo:Quote From pm133: Quote From pm133:
[quote]*SNIP.
I would not read too much into the feedback you get. People won't want to to be rude so you can't trust what they are telling you. Getting training on interview techniques is probably a wise move. Yes I understand that you are desparate and that it is not unreasonable to be so but if employers get a whiff of it your application is dead in the water. As for your last part, this is probably the most enlightening. When you see a job application with a list of attributes or skills a prospective employee must have, how many do you feel you have to have before applying? I would almost always ignore the list entirely. If I had the skills I would list them and not mention the others. If I had none of the skills, I would simply state that and explain why they should take a chance on me. Then I would repeat this for as many jobs as I felt interested in until someone called me. Many people feel they should not apply unless they had 8 or more out of 10 but this is lunacy. Some research a while back indicated that women are particularly bad at this for some reason (possibly related to Imposter Syndrome). If you are waiting to get a full house of skills for the job then that might be one of your problems.
Given my failure so far to get a job in the field when I HAVE all the skills necessary, I don't feel it's a good idea to apply to every job in the world.
Leaving aside the bit about applying for every job in the world because nobody is suggesting that, your logic is flawed here. Getting a job is largely a numbers and probability game. Just because you cant get jobs where you have 100% of the skills doesnt necessarily mean you cant get jobs where you only have 40% of the skills. It just doesnt work like that. You may find an employer who will be happy to hire someone cheaper and be prepared to train you.This is very common.
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pm133
[Registered User]
03 November 2016 02:40
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User: pm133 - 03 November 2016 02:40
Quote From AOE26:
As an employer (with 2 positions currently open) there are a few criteria people must meet. They MUST have the essential skills I list. If it is a technical role then that is simple, more senior roles where they are soft skills then they are harder to judge. Your cv must be near perfect in terms of grammar/formatting etc It's your advert, if you cannot spend a significant amount of time honing it you lack the attention to detail I require. That is to get to interview stage.
OP probably has these boxes ticked as they are getting to interview stage.
What do I look for then? Again, if it's a technical role you will probably get a technical test/grilling from one of my colleagues. Pass that you will then get to see me. I am a huge believer in 'hire the attitude - train the skill' (with a caveat of you probably have the skill as you passed the test :) ) So I want enthusiasm/passion for what you do and want to do - without being desperate. It's near impossible to give people enthusiasm - you need to bring that one! I want to see your personality in an interview, I need to know how you will fit in the team. It does neither of us any good if you ace the interview being someone you are not.. you won't make it through your probation and it will be a waste of everyone's time - so be genuine.
Not every job needs someone with a mountain of ambition. Why? Each time someone out shines me and moves on to better things I have recruit again!!! Ok that is a bit tongue in cheek.. but you get the idea.
I only have 55 words left so I'll wrap it up by saying - match the skills, have the right attitude, be genuine and have a wash and clean your shoes before the interview.
Good luck!
Interesting post. You say candidates must have all of the essential skills you have listed. Hypothetically what would you do if you couldn't find someone with all of those skills? How long would you wait before hiring someone who was missing one of the essential skills?
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AOE26
[Registered User]
02 November 2016 17:06
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User: AOE26 - 02 November 2016 17:06
As an employer (with 2 positions currently open) there are a few criteria people must meet. They MUST have the essential skills I list. If it is a technical role then that is simple, more senior roles where they are soft skills then they are harder to judge. Your cv must be near perfect in terms of grammar/formatting etc It's your advert, if you cannot spend a significant amount of time honing it you lack the attention to detail I require. That is to get to interview stage.
OP probably has these boxes ticked as they are getting to interview stage.
What do I look for then? Again, if it's a technical role you will probably get a technical test/grilling from one of my colleagues. Pass that you will then get to see me. I am a huge believer in 'hire the attitude - train the skill' (with a caveat of you probably have the skill as you passed the test :) ) So I want enthusiasm/passion for what you do and want to do - without being desperate. It's near impossible to give people enthusiasm - you need to bring that one! I want to see your personality in an interview, I need to know how you will fit in the team. It does neither of us any good if you ace the interview being someone you are not.. you won't make it through your probation and it will be a waste of everyone's time - so be genuine.
Not every job needs someone with a mountain of ambition. Why? Each time someone out shines me and moves on to better things I have recruit again!!! Ok that is a bit tongue in cheek.. but you get the idea.
I only have 55 words left so I'll wrap it up by saying - match the skills, have the right attitude, be genuine and have a wash and clean your shoes before the interview.
Good luck!
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Solo
[Registered User]
02 November 2016 16:29
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User: Solo - 02 November 2016 16:29
Quote From pm133:Quote From pm133:
[quote]*SNIP.
I would not read too much into the feedback you get. People won't want to to be rude so you can't trust what they are telling you. Getting training on interview techniques is probably a wise move.
Yes I understand that you are desparate and that it is not unreasonable to be so but if employers get a whiff of it your application is dead in the water.
As for your last part, this is probably the most enlightening. When you see a job application with a list of attributes or skills a prospective employee must have, how many do you feel you have to have before applying? I would almost always ignore the list entirely. If I had the skills I would list them and not mention the others. If I had none of the skills, I would simply state that and explain why they should take a chance on me. Then I would repeat this for as many jobs as I felt interested in until someone called me.
Many people feel they should not apply unless they had 8 or more out of 10 but this is lunacy. Some research a while back indicated that women are particularly bad at this for some reason (possibly related to Imposter Syndrome). If you are waiting to get a full house of skills for the job then that might be one of your problems.
Fair point on the interview feedback, I'm not dismissing it. When applying for a job, I usually apply if I have most of the essential skills, or feel I could pick them up quickly. Given my failure so far to get a job in the field when I HAVE all the skills necessary, I don't feel it's a good idea to apply to every job in the world. I do apply for jobs I'm interested in, taking long chances.
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chickpea
[Registered User]
02 November 2016 13:14
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User: chickpea - 02 November 2016 13:14
I agree with the above post about the person specification - I used to apply for jobs only if I met *everything* on the list of essential criteria (the word 'essential' being a fairly clear term, as I thought), but then I read about the research pm133 refers to, and realised I was in the group of people not taking a chance on things. Now I apply if it seems like a job I'd be interested in and could do. If everyone else is having a go then I might as well too!
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pm133
[Registered User]
02 November 2016 12:17
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User: pm133 - 02 November 2016 12:17
Quote From pm133:*SNIP.
1.) The feedback I get from interviews is positive and well prepared I was. I'm looking for interview training/info at the moment aswell. 2.) And I guess I do sound a bit desperate, but after 2 years of unemployment I guess that's understandable. 3.) As for ambition: I guess we have different definitions of ambition, what I mean is: I'm not overreaching on my job applications, I only target jobs I can do.
I would not read too much into the feedback you get. People won't want to to be rude so you can't trust what they are telling you. Getting training on interview techniques is probably a wise move. Yes I understand that you are desparate and that it is not unreasonable to be so but if employers get a whiff of it your application is dead in the water. As for your last part, this is probably the most enlightening. When you see a job application with a list of attributes or skills a prospective employee must have, how many do you feel you have to have before applying? I would almost always ignore the list entirely. If I had the skills I would list them and not mention the others. If I had none of the skills, I would simply state that and explain why they should take a chance on me. Then I would repeat this for as many jobs as I felt interested in until someone called me. Many people feel they should not apply unless they had 8 or more out of 10 but this is lunacy. Some research a while back indicated that women are particularly bad at this for some reason (possibly related to Imposter Syndrome). If you are waiting to get a full house of skills for the job then that might be one of your problems.
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Solo
[Registered User]
01 November 2016 10:57
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User: Solo - 01 November 2016 10:57
Can anyone else offer suggestions or advice please? I'd be interested in hearing suggestions or insight from others.
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